{"article":{"id":3863,"title":"Gertie Makes No Little Plans: Chicago Exhibition Weekend 2024, and Beyond","excerpt":"","body":"<html><head></head><body><figure class=\"image\"><img src=\"https://res.cloudinary.com/dfafo598z/image/upload/v1731092759/qubuivkeuzzabxtuc0kz.jpg\"><figcaption>Chanelle Lacy and Abby Pucker. Courtesy of Gertie. Photo: Dennis Larance.</figcaption></figure><p>&nbsp;</p><p>By GINNY VAN ALYEA</p><p><i>I sat down with Abby Pucker, founder and CEO of Gertie, and Chanelle Lacy, Gertie’s Director of Art Initiatives, just over a week out from the opening of the second annual Chicago Exhibition Weekend (CXW), set to take the city’s local art community by storm at a time when the majority of the city’s galleries could use a boost of foot traffic and support as well as signs of life that a future collector class exists. The weekend promises 45+ participating galleries, institutional partners, expertly curated routes to follow, cocktail parties, a night market art bazaar, even a tennis match.&nbsp;</i></p><p><i>Sitting among white boards covered with rapidly scrawled brainstorms from the Gertie team–the cohort of ladies pulling everything together for a packed four day art weekend planned for October 3–6, 2024–I wanted to find out just what Abby and Chanelle are up to this season and what is planned once the (dinner) party and the art crawls are over.</i></p><p><i>Following is our conversation on the eve of CXW24. Responses have been edited for clarity.&nbsp;</i></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>CGN: Tell me a little bit about Chicago Exhibition Weekend 2024 and what you're hoping to build on for year two.&nbsp;</strong></p><p><strong>Chanelle Lacy: </strong>CXW is a citywide arts convening that's activating art galleries and creative spaces around the city. I think something really beautiful that typically comes out of an art fair [weekend] is the citywide activation and energy that is circulated in the art world. How do we recreate that synergy without an art fair? CXW is about that, and it's also giving galleries the opportunity to create special programming and exhibitions, knowing that there's going to be an audience and that there's going to be activity. I think so often it feels like an uphill battle to create something without the audience being built into it. CXW gives galleries that opportunity to lean further into their programming, which is really exciting.</p><p><strong>Abby Pucker: </strong>This stuff is happening all the time–there are openings, there are talks–but I think what we're trying to do is create these centers of gravity for the galleries to activate but also for audiences to understand what's happening. There's a lot of education that has to happen, and people also need to feel included–that's always an issue In the art world. Creating an engaging campaign that also speaks beyond the art scene can bring new people into the fold who might be culturally curious and interested but don't know how to way-find. So CXW is breaking it down and making it easier and inviting. We even did curated routes for people so that they might realize they can follow [an insider’s] route. It is so easy.</p><p><strong>CL: </strong>We want people to understand that you can plan your day around CXW. On the curated routes, we also have small businesses. Our route curators have selected three to five restaurants, bars, coffee shops or boutiques. From the outside looking in, you're able to see yourself in the art world without having to be tethered to a museum or gallery opening.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>CGN: What mission has driven you to work with Chicago’s galleries and creatives?&nbsp;</strong></p><p><strong>AP:</strong> I think there are certain galleries that don't do the work to really genuinely support their artists, but the vast majority do. All of the things that go into that 50% [split between a gallery and an artist] many are often times warranted, so [Gertie] likes to partner with those galleries and collect work from those galleries, because without them, the artists don't have places to actually accept their work and build their collector base. This is a way we can build sustainable support for galleries and their artists.&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>CGN: I noticed a description that explains CXW will deepen art world experts’ knowledge of Chicago's art world as well as welcome the “art world curious.” Are there some events that will appeal to somebody who's at one end of the spectrum vs another?</strong></p><p><strong>AP: </strong>A collection visit isn't necessarily going to appeal to everyone, but it's going to appeal to a lot of people. And then there's that interesting intersection between the two. For [Gertie’s program] EarlyWork and the collection visit, it's been really interesting to see who from Early Work is choosing to attend that collection visit because again, it speaks to their level of interest and, maybe also seeing themselves as a collector, which is definitely a goal.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><figure class=\"image\"><img src=\"https://res.cloudinary.com/dfafo598z/image/upload/v1731092760/uu31upx8q9xjoefcc0it.jpg\"><figcaption>Lucia Koch, 3X3 Pots, 2024. IN/SITU installation view<i>: In the Country of Last Things </i>at EXPO CHICAGO 2024. Courtesy the artist and Nara Roseler, São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, New York. Photo: Evan Jenkins.</figcaption></figure><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>CGN: That can be a tough one. CGN has conducted dozens of collector interviews over the years, and I am always interested when someone will agree to do the interview but they hesitate to be labelled ‘a collector.’ Some have become more comfortable, but others totally back away from it, and they have different reasons for that, but ‘collector’ can be a label I think people just sometimes don't want or they worry about related obligations. Or they might think, ‘I'm not a collector yet,’ even when they have 45 works of art in their home!</strong></p><p><strong>AP:</strong> There’s such an aura around collecting and what it means and what it implies. And I think that is creating a barrier for younger people to actually see themselves as a collector. People have this idea of what it means and how much you have to spend and the home you have to have. So a lot of the collection visits EarlyWork is looking to do, especially as we amp up programming, is really showing the wide variety of what collecting is. It's aspirational, but also can be really attainable.</p><p>I think some collectors we’ve worked with are really excited to see that there's a willing and interested group of people on the other end who want to learn more. We did an amazing collection visit with Nancy Lerner and David Frej. That was so special. They talked about the importance of seeing art in person, that they don't buy anything from A PDF or online. I think we're starting to see signs of those connections and those relationships starting to grow.&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>CGN: Tell me about Early Work, Gertie’s up-and-coming collector program?&nbsp;</strong></p><p><strong>AP: </strong>A lot of what we're doing with EarlyWork, which Chanelle runs, is really about building relationships between potential collectors or existing collectors and galleries and also introducing them directly to artists. It's really about introductions and relationships, with context, which I think is really important.</p><p><strong>CL: </strong>Like Abby said, galleries are small businesses. [For a gallery] developing their audience and extending beyond their existing clients, a lot of their resources–their capacity and staffing–goes towards literally just keeping everything afloat.</p><p><strong>AP: </strong>A gallery may have<strong> </strong>two or three collectors who kind of keep things going, and then sometimes they may not be incentivized to necessarily build that. But that's not beneficial for the ecosystem of Chicago as a whole. Gertie is really trying to help them think about the ecosystem as a whole outside of just their own survival.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>CGN: There's been an aging issue for a while, and the collectors who have been so important and foundational are most likely not actively collecting. It makes sense they want to share their knowledge and experience with a new generation.&nbsp;</strong></p><p><strong>AP: </strong>I worked at Sotheby’s. I saw this firsthand. Globally the art world can't just be made or broken by 30 collectors. It is not sustainable. We're seeing it with the crisis that's happening nationally in the art market right now and internationally. I think a lot of what we've been talking to partner galleries about is that's not necessarily the vibe here. [Chicago] can be in a little bubble, which I think in the past has maybe been a disadvantage, because it means we're not part of that system, but now we use this to our advantage and really build something that feels more sustainable, where the middle is prioritized. We're not so beholden to the volatility of what's happening elsewhere.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>CGN: Do you see that EarlyWork has a unique identity when considered against other local groups, like the Art Institute’s Society for Contemporary Art, or the MCA’s Emerge? Collectors can be part of multiple groups, but do where do you see EarlyWork fitting? Is it focusing just on emerging art, or is it just beginning collectors and newer galleries?</strong></p><p><strong>CL: </strong>I think what sets EarlyWork apart is the approachability of it. To be a member of SCA, to be a member of Emerge, you have to already be in the art world or have some sort of understanding of what the art world is, just to even navigate and figure out that that group exists. EarlyWork hopes to educate people and demystify the art world first. It’s approachable. That being said, we see EarlyWork and groups like SCA and Emerge as working alongside each other–not in competition. For instance, in August we hosted an event at the MCA with the Emerge group.</p><p>We're also including events and institutions that are not specifically fine art-centric, such as the Joffrey Ballet and Steppenwolf Theater, so that EarlyWork reaches a wider group of people and interest levels.</p><p><strong>AP: </strong>We have done programming with Emerge and we plan on doing more. And we've talked [with SCA] about doing programming. It's not a competition, it's more like how can we come together and build a stronger community? We see it also as a pipeline. What we're trying to do with EarlyWork is detach it from any one institution or entity or gallery and make it totally agnostic so we can say, do this for a year and learn about what exists in the world. I don't think that people necessarily have to be EarlyWork members forever. I think there's a natural growth and evolution that should happen to create a healthy ecosystem.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><figure class=\"image\"><img src=\"https://res.cloudinary.com/dfafo598z/image/upload/v1731092761/liaqpknlbuly84ji8ezv.jpg\"><figcaption>EarlyWork at Mariane Ibrahim, July 2024. Courtesy of Gertie. Photo: Dennis Larance.</figcaption></figure><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>CGN: You've lived in different places. You're choosing to have a very Chicago-centric focus in collecting and everything else. What do you think sets Chicago’s art landscape apart from others around the country or the world?&nbsp;</strong></p><p><strong>AP:</strong> To me the approachability is I think unmatched, and just the access. In 2023 [Gertie] hosted a series with Blind Barber that we called inter)mezzo. We did it for about nine months and we would have an artist host each time. It was on a Sunday –&nbsp;a day party vibe. We'd have an artist do an installation in the front barbershop of Wine Barber, and then we'd pair them with a resident DJ, who would bring in younger or emerging DJs. Then we would have a theme. I remember Nick Cave and Bob Faust did one with a sort of disco theme, and they rolled literally in their roller skates. People came, including SAIC students as well as admirers of Nick's work. Someone came up to me and was like, ‘I can't believe I'm dancing with Nick Cave right now. That's so cool.’</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>CGN: Chicago has never been flash in the pan, so artists tend to find the space and focus that is right for them, not everyone else. When I first started at CGN in 2002 so many people pointed out to me how collegial the galleries are to one another. It keeps people being neighbors and friends.</strong></p><p><strong>AP: </strong>I think what we're getting at here is community. In Chicago there is such a sense of resource sharing and being able to actually call up your neighbor and say, ‘Hey, I need help or I want to share this with you. That's something that I don't think exists as much in New York or LA because there is this competition that's just baked into everything. In Chicago you feel a confidence, ‘I have enough that I can give to you and know that that's not ultimately pulling from my own cup.’</p><p><strong>CL: </strong>Look at the group exhibition that Mariane Ibrahim presented this summer that had work from other galleries like GRAY, DOCUMENT, Rhona Hoffman. I’m not sure you would see that in other cities.</p><p><strong>AP: </strong>At last year’s bowling fundraiser for the Renaissance Society [at Seven Ten Social in Hyde Park] I thought, this would never happen in another major city. You would never have all of these different galleries together hanging out. Well, maybe that’s not totally true, because in New York there is a group of galleries that I think really want to have fun, but it was really cool to see here.&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>CGN: It’s OK, we can talk about Chicago being more fun. That's fine.</strong></p><p><strong>AP: </strong>You can find pockets of it elsewhere, but I think you wouldn't find the people who are sort of the top of the game in Chicago and the people who are still emerging all in that soup together, which is definitely different. I don't think you're seeing Gagosian and [David] Zwirner and Hauser [&amp; Wirth] all bowling together.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>CGN: I think you the veteran galleries that are genuinely excited when new galleries open and people try new things. That's all welcome.</strong></p><p><strong>CL: </strong>I asked Francine Almeda, who recently opened Tala, about her experience being in West Town. She’s so young, and I wanted to know how has that experience been for her. She said she’s just felt so welcomed and everyone has embraced her with open arms.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>CGN: I think this is why you’re right that we need to work even harder to build a base of more collectors, to meaningfully support this community of galleries and artists and institutions.&nbsp;</strong></p><p><strong>AP: </strong>I think more collectors begets more artists – more artists who are able to stay here as opposed to moving. I think a lot of people see Chicago as a breeding ground, and then we have this sort of brain drain or talent drain. We need more people transacting <i>here</i>.&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>CGN: Well, it's an uphill battle and a very worthy challenge you're taking on, getting people to collect locally, because that's been a sort of a boogeyman for a long time. You hear people will go to an art fair in New York and buy art from a Chicago gallery but say they bought it in New York. And I think, ‘You live in Chicago! Buy here!’ And don’t wait for the art fairs–go visit galleries on a Saturday morning. It would be great for a younger generation to finally conquer some of that fear of collecting in Chicago.&nbsp;</strong></p><p><strong>AP: </strong>That's the place where there's insecurity in Chicago. Yes, there are amazing collectors who have built a lot of the institutions in this city. But I think there could be more risk taking to say, I'm going to take a bet on this gallery here, this artist here, collectors seeing how they can help to shape the market. I think what we need more of is security and a little bit of bravado.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>CGN: There’s no secret vetting process that takes place in New York that doesn't take place here.</strong> <strong>Chicago collectors should feel free to ask questions and make their own decisions about what they want to explore and collect.&nbsp;</strong></p><p><strong>AP: </strong>Exactly. If you already have skin in the game and if you have bought work by an artist, help them succeed and help the gallery bring on new artists. I think collectors here need to understand that that's also their role and responsibility. And that is, I think what I realized personally with my own collecting and by sharing it with friends. At first I was like, I'm not a collector. And then I was like, no, I am. There's a responsibility that comes with that as well.</p><p><strong>CL:</strong> That's why the title of CXW's kickoff program is titled <i>Embracing Chicago,</i> because it's a movement and an energy that I've felt and many of us have felt over the past several years, this sort of bravado building around really leaning into Chicago–its amazing assets and resources, the lineage and history, the institutions and movements that have all been birthed in this city. Instead of needing to be New York or wanting to be LA or hopping on the trends we're seeing in those cities, it's leaning into what makes Chicago, Chicago. We love this city and we've chosen to stay here, build careers here, open new galleries here. Let's change the conversation and focus on what we already have, versus trying to be something else. CXW is that work that is really embracing our strengths.</p><p><strong>AP:</strong> Love that. Chanelle said it all.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><i>A few highlights of CXW24:</i></p><ul><li><a href=\"https://email.resnicow.com/e3t/Ctc/GG+113/d2yR0Y04/VVRxKb99yq05W8jZ1BP19cZkdW4FBnYy5ltpGhN5wYXRY3lYMRW7Y8-PT6lZ3kZW75DtSg2nWRgcV3Fphn2YVZ4fW5V_Ttq5d36XJW4S_qyk84C_1VW6XH-B79hqgW9W5fSjgM60HtRqW13qgh-94XsnYW7Gh5-15tnv3DW4TFMT_4g_bVmW4XbF0G2g0rYLW4y4j_M8dhS-pM-xDZN8sCR-W5WDbzj8xmD8VW1GglNw5bWvvLW228p8F9cDQ3JW4xQpJ57lgqPJW1ZFcsJ6txt5QW5v5nfC6f24psW7fwM2W4gGMrWW4_TjrZ1Sq8rgW2VXGlr2jGv7fW93xR3g6LYXCfW5Y0zHK6q6sWrW11w86X4y6ksfW7pFtWX2PLXcBW5vSnwW6mcxzFf7GjDTs04\"><strong>EarlyWork x ICI Cocktail Party at Mariane Ibrahim</strong></a> – Oct 3<br>&nbsp;</li><li><a href=\"https://email.resnicow.com/e3t/Ctc/GG+113/d2yR0Y04/VVRxKb99yq05W8jZ1BP19cZkdW4FBnYy5ltpGhN5wYXRY3lYMRW7Y8-PT6lZ3nzW4bKtGS2WcnXnW2nbwkw4rf4HbW25xhdh11PbHLW24FhPJ3_7F0LW90DqTZ6GkyNQW2QfBn-810dnPW3DSgVl6YKZCNW3wgVwJ2sK4c9W92Z6SF6VCsNnW2_1RDz3bxw3qW7K4rF327pYttW7hMTwP8N-tHTW1hFv_v7RJp6XW304nLB7qT8QJW6Dx4G83Bz69tW1GH_pM7QNwTpW53_dQy5BGnNfW6jKKBV3CDWn_W8SyvL76NFX4lW6vyNk38rnp-1W4zDTYS4_J9xQW8ZfSJX1DbFLnN14bfpfh06CbW9gMTr03BM3R2W41Yj-z8tLJ6XW8_FJ9P7DTw54f35Cyn404\"><strong>EarlyWork x GRAY Cocktail Party &amp; Gallery Grand Opening</strong></a> – Oct 4<br>&nbsp;</li><li><a href=\"https://email.resnicow.com/e3t/Ctc/GG+113/d2yR0Y04/VVRxKb99yq05W8jZ1BP19cZkdW4FBnYy5ltpGhN5wYXRF3lYMRW7lCdLW6lZ3ljW56SCNd4fJpT1W25HC154hVwkBW1xJngB2qHgL-W6mN12N64Dy9BW7_StNX5QHb04W1yM-mX3R5YzyW7MXgjK7Q-Z-tVj-KVH4JCm19W3hh2ZB66Y1gVW6yWKl75VZjnQW5PgZjD1y7fj8W5wrpGW1WbgpCW5NZjPX8N5RbQW7rjxKh5xvbP4W5x_2W63_B1C7W6yF1sP3NrsNCW7tjTfX1CNM8bW7thMYx5V9BPJW6qFShw6G8Hj9W2z6Fgb9g1sHqVP_4ZV2g4tFLW8dMR7r1vPwrCW6Pm5F34LrnSsW1B2Lg030BBTvf4MXByT04\"><strong>Kickoff Dinner at UMMO</strong></a>&nbsp; and <a href=\"https://email.resnicow.com/e3t/Ctc/GG+113/d2yR0Y04/VVRxKb99yq05W8jZ1BP19cZkdW4FBnYy5ltpGhN5wYXRY3lYMRW7Y8-PT6lZ3nyW4qB04Z8_5MfJN3GyJCf8GgJNW7V-Y6n6bZCm5W6f8zG156jJN5W1ZWCxV18mFBSW1czbrj3-fYgbW4zb4HD1DH4m4W7GK0KM1XMp3dW5pMh9_7jwqWbW7f_Hpm7wskpLN5dBbmz9Y40qW4yh9Yk7Zj3l4W8sX4hC93D1C8W80nnMj2Q8c-zW4rQ_Cs5HWDHJW1C5FCB5NPpXwW1NL0lS6S8VdgN199rH6fgxH5VdDfD57XjpNVW30SvmG13Rt5hW7pHl9X10wtWvW6TlrfN5Vvd_qW6Vn3KK1Mf5FyVgzRYf3G_6jBW7v4SrS79NWXNW6y7qnQ9lZ_47f7ygGvs04\"><strong>CXW Afterparty at The California Clipper</strong></a> – Oct 4<br>&nbsp;</li><li><a href=\"https://email.resnicow.com/e3t/Ctc/GG+113/d2yR0Y04/VVRxKb99yq05W8jZ1BP19cZkdW4FBnYy5ltpGhN5wYXRl5kvg0W6N1X8z6lZ3l8W2xbRf54SmPf_V_4VyD3KdWtKW7HFrk_7JvcQ_W75XFJB5QXtyzW88PS_y637M6rW7H24427lXrsQW2YvZNY4wDHCsW12npJk1jLw8SW2TfJql5WQsPfVQzmLm2j1LwjMQ1BXzrHw-4W6CXG_H7yxqcyW9bf9fP5P2kn3W4T1p-c8-B-9FW75KFNt7HGLrMW67v9N_7pLsHFW3xPX_y6pWvH8W1l0l-k54CdhbW43wcbL8tKnR1W95sB1s181wQnW694nPp9dk8GHW3GxK5V7nr46jW8nPwLD4k24QpW7j5CzQ4GjWrfVktcMt2fyhBlW5ymvTk5mHs-lW44nsyd6r4Kx4W8V4R2823Ct9rW8c803m8DCjZTW7fjCz64hx52jW2TStsJ7Lt4Q8W12m8XR31_ZVhW4pTz2w4_djw-W8Pd8CQ6RnmyJV4HWM_62K-_qW8KD63d5pNrQ_N8lfq4kCwxjcW3H6PnZ3J0BDHf63yC6n04\"><strong>Embracing Chicago: Kickoff Program at Murphy Auditorium (Driehaus Museum)</strong></a> – Oct 5<br>&nbsp;</li><li><a href=\"https://email.resnicow.com/e3t/Ctc/GG+113/d2yR0Y04/VVRxKb99yq05W8jZ1BP19cZkdW4FBnYy5ltpGhN5wYXSd3lYMRW8wLKSR6lZ3q5W7hQDF66P5Qg8W4XV6dz2t7VYYW5fbJcJ20qKndW3w64dS13F6FbW1LwkD51NNzH3W2Zngx64ZDxxtW7bVL3m26NvsqW1ZSxsJ5xmHtKN6g6_kGdPmp0V-FQ2k6Y-7-yN2kN7R9qPRpRW83nFjL2DKX3RTgFhF4KyXSnTzv4s4wV9YXN8vnW9J8vSgWW7669K192Bzg6W8vj5z28Qr6G3W97YNF38CtGvfW4-qvqn27WR6qW4VZXbS6cc88cW2Q1hhy6fh7kPVbsQxd3S-Y0DW8tpTQ63001BJW5lVmb877D4Z3W2syPrf4lxt-cW5dxrTp8LjPtcW5k4D1j270GlFW2wFWPD7z2LqFdFpbDb04\"><strong>Nightmarket Art Bazaar presented by Gertie &amp; Refine Collective</strong></a> – Oct 5</li></ul><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Full details about EarlyWork as well events taking place during Chicago Exhibition Weekend, October 3–6, 2024 may be found at <a href=\"http://cxw24.co\">cxw24.co</a> and <a href=\"https://www.gertie.co\">gertie.co/</a></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>#&nbsp;</p></body></html>","published_at":"2024-09-28 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'zwirner':2286B","thumbnail":"https://res.cloudinary.com/dfafo598z/image/upload/f_auto,q_auto/v1731090390/a17xanjd7h1oa0imw3vk.jpg","editor_pick":false,"category_name":"Interviews"},"related":[{"id":13767,"title":"Anticipating a Season of Art: Five to Talk to – Nikko Washington","excerpt":"","body":"<p>Fall offers a full slate of exhibitions across galleries and museums throughout the Midwest.&nbsp;Behind the scenes, many people in the community are working tirelessly to support artists and bring fresh perspectives to the public. We spoke&nbsp;with five insiders about what excites them now&nbsp;and what they anticipate next.</p><p><br></p><p><em>The following preview is one of five conversations that appear in CGN's Fall 2026 magazine. To receive a copy of the print edition&nbsp;</em><a href=\"https://835ba3.myshopify.com/\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\"><em>click here.</em></a></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><img src=\"https://res.cloudinary.com/dfafo598z/image/upload/v1789517637/noxz9olp47gfneafz8xg.jpg\"></p><p><br></p><h4><em>Nikko Washington –&nbsp;</em></h4><h4><em>Artist</em></h4><p><br></p><p>“I’m thrilled to further expand my artistic and design practice by introducing other mediums into the mix. I’m looking forward to watching the seasons change and devoting a lot of time in the studio as well. Fall/winter is my favorite time to create new works.&nbsp;</p><p><br></p><p>I have an upcoming solo show with <a href=\"https://vsgcontemporary.com\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">VSG&nbsp;Contemporary</a> that I am excited about. The work will delve further into the topics of cultural mythology and how these tales and narratives have helped shape my worldview.&nbsp;</p><p><br></p><p>Also, it wouldn’t be right if I left out my&nbsp;excitement for this upcoming season of Chicago sports.”</p><p><br></p><p><a href=\"https://www.nikkowashington.com\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">Nikko Washington</a></p><p><br></p>","published_at":"2026-09-11 00:30:00","state":"published","slug":"anticipating-a-season-of-art-five-to-talk-to-nikko-washington","type":null,"meta_description":"","text":null,"created_at":"2026-09-16 00:13:58.216","updated_at":"2026-09-16 00:13:58.216","category_id":3,"highlighted":false,"searchable":"'2026':76B 'across':19B 'also':174B 'anticip':1A,60B 'appear':71B 'art':5A 'artist':39B,90B,98B 'behind':26B 'bring':41B 'cgn':73B 'chang':117B 'chicago':191B 'click':86B 'communiti':33B 'contemporari':146B 'convers':69B 'copi':81B 'creat':135B 'cultur':161B 'delv':155B 'design':100B 'devot':119B 'edit':85B 'excit':54B,150B,185B 'exhibit':18B 'expand':96B 'fall':12B,75B 'fall/winter':129B 'favorit':132B 'five':6A,50B,68B 'follow':63B 'forward':112B 'fresh':42B 'full':15B 'galleri':20B 'help':170B 'insid':51B 'introduc':103B 'left':182B 'look':111B 'lot':121B 'm':92B,110B 'magazin':77B 'mani':29B 'medium':105B 'midwest':25B 'mix':108B 'museum':22B 'mytholog':162B 'narrat':168B 'new':136B 'next':61B 'nikko':10A,88B,193B 'offer':13B 'one':66B 'peopl':30B 'perspect':43B 'practic':101B 'preview':64B 'print':84B 'public':46B 'receiv':79B 'right':179B 'scene':28B 'season':3A,116B,189B 'shape':171B 'show':143B 'slate':16B 'solo':142B 'spoke':48B 'sport':192B 'studio':126B 'support':38B 'tale':166B 'talk':8A 'thrill':93B 'throughout':23B 'time':123B,133B 'tireless':36B 'topic':159B 'upcom':141B,188B 'vsg':145B 'washington':11A,89B,194B 'watch':114B 'well':128B 'work':35B,137B,153B 'worldview':173B 'wouldn':176B","thumbnail":"https://res.cloudinary.com/dfafo598z/image/upload/v1788406360/ujd84dhihjroxqjs9izj.jpg","editor_pick":true},{"id":13930,"title":"Andi Crist: The Art of The Pun","excerpt":null,"body":"<p><img src=\"https://res.cloudinary.com/dfafo598z/image/upload/v1788961823/s3lp0uull2s8mvd8funj.jpg\"></p><p><span style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">Andi Crist, </span><em style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">Extension Cords</em><span style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">, Glazed stoneware, chrome, Sizes vary 2021-present. Photo: Mikey Mosher</span></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><strong><em>This interview is part of CGN's Fall 2026 issue.&nbsp;</em></strong><strong style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51);\"><em style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51);\"><a href=\"https://chicagogallerynews.myshopify.com/\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51);\" target=\"_blank\">Purchase a copy or subscribe</a>.</em></strong></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><img src=\"https://res.cloudinary.com/dfafo598z/image/upload/v1788961824/mghrpnghxd9j9ko2dsjt.jpg\"></p><p><span style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">Andi Crist</span></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p>BY ALISON REILLY</p><p><br></p><p>Andi Crist’s warm, engaging demeanor is evident in the first few minutes of our conversation. Generous with her time and forthcoming in her observations, she cares deeply about building relationships through her art making. Crist grew up in Birmingham, Alabama, devoured art classes, wrote songs and played music in high school, and moved to Chicago to study visual art at Columbia College. In 2024, she received her MFA from the University of Illinois at Chicago. She is a woodworker, sculptor, ceramicist, and conceptual artist, and she teaches at Illinois Institute of Technology. We discussed her multidisciplinary practice, her experience working as an art handler, preparator, and fabricator, and how she thinks about labor, creativity, and value in the art world.&nbsp;</p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><strong>CGN: You grew up in Birmingham, Alabama. How did that environment shape your point of view as an artist?</strong></p><p><br></p><p><strong>Andi Crist:</strong> That’s such a funny question. Nobody’s ever really asked.</p><p><br></p><p><strong>CGN: Oh, really?</strong></p><p><br></p><p><strong>AC: </strong>Yeah, maybe because I never was super connected with the arts community down in Birmingham. I moved to Chicago in 2007, so it’s been 20 years since I lived in the South. I was definitely one of those art kids—one art credit was required in high school, and I graduated with like seven. I was surrounded by artists who had a big impact on me, because they were working artists. All my art teachers were trained in Alabama and then continued to teach and work in Alabama, which gave me this desire to try to expand my community outside of what I was familiar with.</p><p><br></p><p><strong>CGN: Do you identify as a Chicagoan?</strong></p><p><br></p><p><strong>AC: </strong>My family still lives in Alabama, and I go back every year. I love being in Alabama. Maybe now being in Chicago for almost 20 years, I identify as a southerner living in the city. I carry on the social qualities of a friendly southern person [laughs].&nbsp;</p><p><br></p><p><strong>CGN:</strong> <strong>You have a varied art practice</strong><strong style=\"color: rgb(71, 71, 71);\">—</strong><strong>woodwork, ceramics, mold making. What drew you to those types of fabrication methods and that type of art making?</strong></p><p><br></p><p><strong>AC:</strong> My dad is a carpenter and a hobbyist woodworker, but his career was psychology, and my mom was a professor and an incredible craftswoman. I absorbed my mom’s model of creativity, which is to try a bunch of different things and not necessarily finish them but to try to learn as much as I can by just going for it. My practice over the years has become an exploration of conceptual elements of what makes art art and not just craft. Do you have to be a master craftsperson or a professional artist in order to make something that resonates with people?</p><p><br></p><p>I make a lot of work that references the mode of making and requires a variety of different media. I just finished teaching a ceramics production class where students learned how to produce molds, think about positives and negatives, and get into a level of production rather than just handicraft as a way to multiply their output.</p><p><br></p><p>I got into fabrication because I’ve always liked working with other artists. I have a background in theater and gallery work. I’m a voracious learner, and I like being able to share those skills with my community. Then I end up making work about that. It’s a self-feeding cycle.</p><p><br></p><p><img src=\"https://res.cloudinary.com/dfafo598z/image/upload/v1788961825/zzejqwibga5f5wk6einh.jpg\"></p><p><span style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">Andi Crist,&nbsp;</span><em style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">Artist’s Ladder</em><span style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">, 2023.&nbsp;Photo: Jeff Perlman</span></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><strong>CGN: Thinking about your background as an art handler and preparator</strong><strong style=\"color: rgb(59, 62, 65);\">—</strong><strong>how did you get to the point where you were making work about that experience?</strong></p><p><br></p><p><strong>AC: </strong>In 2010, right before I graduated from Columbia, I was living in a storefront in West Logan Square with my partner at the time. We started a gallery called Autotelic in the space and had to build it out using the worst tools with very minimal resources. Then we started curating shows there and that meant helping other artists figure out how to install their work in our unusual space. Eventually, I gained the reputation for knowing how to do that type of work. I started getting invited to work in museums and galleries.&nbsp;</p><p><br></p><p>The Holocaust Museum was the first museum I worked at, and as difficult as that subject matter is, that experience was really important to me because I was learning more about the larger world of gallery work. As an artist working as a preparator, you’re straddling both sides of that space. You’re really seeing how the sausage is made. You’re hearing all the conversations about artists, curators, the process of exhibition making. There is a lot of information you can gather about the economics of the art world by just being the person that has the know-how to touch and handle artwork. Eventually that started feeding into my art practice because I wanted to make work that was contributing to a conversation around art as a type of job. It fueled a methodology of seeing everything in the world as the result of a long line of processes that required effort and thoughtfulness by many hands.</p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><img src=\"https://res.cloudinary.com/dfafo598z/image/upload/v1788961826/uv5bysb5fbne30gr5czh.jpg\"></p><p><span style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">Andi Crist, </span><em style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">Fair Warning</em><span style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">, 2025.</span></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><strong>CGN: The title of your recent exhibition at the Cleve Carney Museum—<em>Live, Laugh, Lo</em>—sorry, not <em>Live, Laugh, Love</em>—<em>Live, Laugh, Labor</em>.</strong></p><p><br></p><p><strong>AC:</strong> [Laughs] That’s what everybody does.</p><p><br></p><p><strong>CGN: I love the title—it’s perfect. You incorporate humor along with thoughtful critiques about labor and value in your work. What role does humor play? How does it help you connect with your audience?</strong></p><p><br></p><p><strong>AC:</strong> One of my biggest criticisms of art with a capital A is how easily it can be overly intellectualized. I think that’s why I end up making a lot of work that references things that already exist or have some kind of real purpose. It’s important to give people a foothold so there’s an obvious place to board that train of thought. As an artist—maybe this is me getting into a sweeping argument about what artists should be—but I personally believe in intellectual accessibility. Humor is a swift way to drop defenses and allow people to come in without feeling like they are not getting the joke or not understanding. I like to make work that can hold both of those things at the same time—it’s funny on the surface level, it’s kind of cheeky, but there’s also another way to look at it that is intellectually clever. There is a joy in the attempt to “get it”. Like the satisfaction of grasping how a crossword puzzle actually works.</p><p><br></p><p>It’s also so much a part of my personality. I take myself seriously as an artist, but my ego isn’t at the heart of it. It’s really something that I do because I love to make things, and I love to connect with other people. My parents raised me on puns, creating those language relationships between things and people and space. Understanding a joke is the same way that we understand art, and while neither of my parents would consider themselves artists, they taught me how to think about art.</p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><img src=\"https://res.cloudinary.com/dfafo598z/image/upload/v1788961828/gnotyfijabr7e15kb6hm.jpg\"></p><p><span style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">Andi Crist,&nbsp;</span><em style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">69 Bananas</em></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><strong>CGN: Your work, <em>Artist’s Ladder</em>, explores hierarchies, workplace cultures, and institutional values. What experiences shaped your reflections on these themes?</strong></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>AC:</strong> The ladder piece distinctly represents the complicated relationship between front of house, back of house, and the hierarchy of labor. Who is the artist in those relationships? How much does another person’s knowledge and expertise contribute to the success of another artist?</p><p><br></p><p>There are enormous, industrialized art practices out there, warehouses full of people making things, and those people are also artists. When you make work that involves other people, it’s important to acknowledge their contributions. I’ve had complicated interactions with other artists who are like, ‘Hey, do you want to collaborate with me on this thing?’ but really they just want me to make their idea. I made <em>Artist’s Ladder</em> while I was in grad school at UIC, and it really represented my relationship with a lot of other artists, because I could be an actual support structure for them. Then it turned into this absurd physical thing. It’s extremely overbuilt with inlaid racing stripes made of exotic hardwood, and a butcher’s block-style plaid top. It’s not really like an FU as much as it is asking for acknowledgement of my skills and the essential support structures that exist.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>CGN: I want to ask you about another piece, <em>Five O’Clock Somewhere</em>, a wool rug that resembles a children’s play mat. I work at a library, and it reminded me of rugs I see all the time. It’s a peaceful image of an office park with a large fountain surrounded by a parking lot. I’m curious why you chose a rug as the medium to depict that image.</strong></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong style=\"color: rgb(38, 38, 38);\">AC: </strong><span style=\"color: rgb(38, 38, 38);\">To me </span>the heart of that joke was that it was a landscape. I wanted it to be physically traversable. And that was, I don’t want to say controversial, but it was something that I had to talk about a lot.<span style=\"color: rgb(38, 38, 38);\"> </span>The critique of that work was the fact that I didn’t want to hang it on the wall and turn it into a tapestry. I really wanted it to be a rug that people could walk on. When I showed that work at Chicago Artists Coalition for the New City Breakout Artists show. There was a lot of pushback about having it on the floor and allowing people to walk on it.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>That, to me, was such an important conversation, because, in my mind, the fact that you could walk across it and traverse it was part of how I was thinking about the object. Rugs are utilitarian–they are floor coverings. When you make art that doesn’t do anything, you don’t get to participate in that part of the conversation.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>I enjoy sparring around art like that. I am totally tickled by the pushback. The critique of display is exciting, and sorting through the politics of utilitarianism in art spaces is fun to me. And then—it was so crazy—we ended up showing it halfway on the wall and halfway on the ground.&nbsp;</p><p><br></p><p><img src=\"https://res.cloudinary.com/dfafo598z/image/upload/v1788961829/r1zylkwfw9rkw191skdl.jpg\"></p><p><span style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">Andi Crist, </span><em style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">Five O’Clock Somewhere</em><span style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">, on display at </span><em style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">Live, Laugh, Labor: Thoughts on Usefulness and Other Myths</em><span style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\"> at The Cleve Carney Museum of Art, 2025.</span></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><strong>CGN: Oh, wow.</strong></p><p><br></p><p><strong>AC: </strong>I was like, this is the epitome of compromise! I had to build a structure so that it could hang that way safely.&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>CGN: I would say just put it on the ground if that’s what you want to do. It’s interesting that there are still very fixed ideas about the way that art should be displayed.</strong></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>AC: </strong>That preparator part of it, that’s what I’m all about. I was having that conversation about what physically supports the work or what conceptually supports it in the way that it’s shown.&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>CGN: Have you always been a writer? How do your art and writing practices work together?&nbsp;</strong></p><p><br></p><p><strong>AC: </strong>I can’t say that I’m a writer, it’s probably the same way that it can feel weird to call yourself an artist. But I feel like I’ve always been relatively good at writing. The first time I ever did any kind of professional writing was contributing,&nbsp;a long time ago, to a website called eHow. The editors would send me a title, and then I would have to research how to do that thing. Then I would write out step-by-step instructions for how to do that.&nbsp;</p><p><br></p><p>I think that’s how I had to make myself think through my conceptual practice—I had to do the research, coagulate that into some kind of document, and then I would have stream-of-consciousness conversations with myself. “Why are we interested in this? Why would we make it this way? What would I want to talk about if someone were to ask me about this?” It’s almost like I was pre-interviewing myself.&nbsp;</p><p><br></p><p>I think the writing is just another way for me to process that idea before I put in all of the time and energy to actually accomplish it.&nbsp;</p><p><br></p><p><strong>CGN: What are you working on right now? What projects do you have coming up?</strong></p><p><br></p><p><strong>AC: </strong>The biggest project that I have right now is my house. My family and I suffered a major house fire on New Year’s Day. We’ve been displaced since then and are navigating rebuilding our house. It was a total loss.&nbsp;</p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><img src=\"https://res.cloudinary.com/dfafo598z/image/upload/v1788961830/kekfqzf9f87fq48juogh.jpg\"></p><p><span style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">Andi Crist, </span><em style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">Single-Use Fireplace</em><span style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">, 2025. Photo: Mikey Mosher.</span></p><p><br></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>CGN: I’m so sorry to hear that.&nbsp;</strong></p><p><br></p><p><strong>AC: </strong>Thank you. We’re all okay, but it’s been a really tumultuous year. I moved my studio into a storefront last summer, and so most of my, at least relatively recent, work is safe, and I still have all of my materials, but my home life is starting over. I just had my first full year at this space, and it’s got a little gallery built out in the front called Coming Soon. It’s beautiful with floor-to-ceiling windows on Division and Central Park. I’ve been inviting people into the space to try things out.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>After teaching the ceramics class, I came into a bunch of nice slip casting molds, and I’m making some really playful, weird, ceramic stuff. I want to be open and not put too much pressure on myself. Having a big studio by myself is very expensive, so it’s easy to want to make it feel like it’s worth it. But if for now all I can do is make it a resource for other people, then that will be the thing I do. Be less selfish, but more selfish with my time. Saying I can’t do that, or I don’t want to do that. It’s not my nature to say no—I’m such a yes man. I’m learning how to be a yes man for myself.&nbsp;</p><p><br></p><p><strong>CGN: That makes sense after going through something so traumatic.</strong></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>AC:</strong> I have an amazing support system. Our friends started a GoFundMe. It was incredible. I’m so humbled and floored by how held I felt by Chicago. I can’t help but throw a little shout out to my Chicago people. I can see how people’s lives get totally ruined by this kind of tragedy. I feel so lucky. Chicago definitely showed its love back.&nbsp;</p><p><br></p><p><strong>CGN: For your project Coming Soon, are you bringing in other artists?</strong></p><p><br></p><p><strong>AC: </strong>My philosophy is that I want to be involved as little as possible. I am thinking about it more as a hosted than curated space. I’m actively soliciting proposals or ideas for workshops, meetings, book clubs—I’m down for making it a resource, whatever that means. I don’t want to over-think it, I want it to be an intuitive and organic thing, which is why I call it Coming Soon—it can be a placeholder for anything. It’s exciting. Taking my hands off the reins is a good exercise for me.</p><p><br></p><p><a href=\"https://www.andicrist.com/\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">andicrist.com</a></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><img src=\"https://res.cloudinary.com/dfafo598z/image/upload/v1788961831/gno5dhliwfnzpuaim78s.jpg\"></p><p><span style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">Andi Crist, </span><em style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">Extension Cords</em><span style=\"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);\">, Glazed stoneware, chrome, Sizes vary 2021-present. Photo: Mikey Mosher</span></p><p><br></p><p><br></p>","published_at":"2026-09-10 01:00:00","state":"published","slug":"andi-crist-the-art-of-the-pun","type":null,"meta_description":"","text":null,"created_at":"2026-09-09 13:50:32.441","updated_at":"2026-09-09 13:50:32.441","category_id":3,"highlighted":false,"searchable":"'20':224B,338B '2007':219B '2010':639B '2021':17B,2614B '2023':607B '2024':106B '2025':897B,1789B,2169B '2026':30B '69':1238B 'abl':579B 'absorb':413B 'absurd':1412B 'ac':198B,313B,387B,637B,921B,964B,1261B,1533B,1793B,1853B,1905B,2120B,2181B,2427B,2506B 'access':1053B 'accomplish':2103B 'acknowledg':1337B,1450B 'across':1667B 'activ':2534B 'actual':1141B,1402B,2102B 'ago':1959B 'alabama':82B,169B,278B,287B,319B,330B 'alison':40B 'allow':1063B,1643B 'almost':337B,2069B 'along':939B 'alreadi':1001B 'also':1111B,1145B,1323B 'alway':555B,1892B,1937B 'amaz':2431B 'andi':1A,8B,37B,42B,182B,602B,893B,1236B,1764B,2163B,2605B 'andicrist.com':2604B 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We spoke&nbsp;with five insiders about what excites them now&nbsp;and what they anticipate next.</p><p><br></p><p><em>The following preview is one of five conversations that appear in CGN's Fall 2026 magazine. To receive a copy of the print edition&nbsp;</em><a href=\"https://835ba3.myshopify.com/\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\"><em>click here.&nbsp;</em></a></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><img src=\"https://res.cloudinary.com/dfafo598z/image/upload/v1789516769/izokunnmrufdyjbjnypk.jpg\"></p><h4><em>Debra Kerr –&nbsp;</em></h4><h4><em>CEO, Intuit Art Museum</em></h4><p><br></p><p>“Intuit Art Museum’s renovated, expanded spaces give audiences the chance to connect with art through daily art-making, third Thursday Art After Work, group Slow Looks designed to provide a mindful experience with a single work and upcoming conversations with sculptor Bill Brady (Oct. 3) and Dr. Mary Trent (Oct. 15), who curated our current exhibition on the role of scrapbook-making in Henry Darger’s art.&nbsp;</p><p><br></p><p>On view is the thought-provoking <em>Monumental: The Sculpture of Dr. Charles Smith</em>, which encourages guests to consider the lack of historical representation of African Americans and Black people in America. Dr. Smith’s memorials champion Black history and stories of everyday life he sees missing in mainstream narratives.&nbsp;</p><p><br></p><p>This fall we’re opening an exhibition of paintings by Karla Wong, an artist who immigrated from Oaxaca and who explores themes of life and death, gender identity and self-discovery.”</p><p><br></p><p><a href=\"https://art.org\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">Intuit Art Museum</a></p>","published_at":"2026-09-09 00:30:00","state":"published","slug":"anticipating-a-season-of-art-five-to-talk-to-debra-kerr","type":null,"meta_description":"","text":null,"created_at":"2026-09-15 23:59:29.662","updated_at":"2026-09-15 23:59:29.662","category_id":3,"highlighted":false,"searchable":"'15':146B '2026':76B '3':140B 'across':19B 'african':189B 'america':195B 'american':190B 'anticip':1A,60B 'appear':71B 'art':5A,92B,95B,108B,112B,116B,163B,247B 'art-mak':111B 'artist':39B,227B 'audienc':102B 'behind':26B 'bill':137B 'black':192B,201B 'bradi':138B 'bring':41B 'ceo':90B 'cgn':73B 'champion':200B 'chanc':104B 'charl':176B 'click':86B 'communiti':33B 'connect':106B 'consid':182B 'convers':69B,134B 'copi':81B 'curat':148B 'current':150B 'daili':110B 'darger':161B 'death':239B 'debra':10A,88B 'design':122B 'discoveri':245B 'dr':142B,175B,196B 'edit':85B 'encourag':179B 'everyday':206B 'excit':54B 'exhibit':18B,151B,220B 'expand':99B 'experi':127B 'explor':234B 'fall':12B,75B,215B 'five':6A,50B,68B 'follow':63B 'fresh':42B 'full':15B 'galleri':20B 'gender':240B 'give':101B 'group':119B 'guest':180B 'henri':160B 'histor':186B 'histori':202B 'ident':241B 'immigr':229B 'insid':51B 'intuit':91B,94B,246B 'karla':224B 'kerr':11A,89B 'lack':184B 'life':207B,237B 'look':121B 'magazin':77B 'mainstream':212B 'make':113B,158B 'mani':29B 'mari':143B 'memori':199B 'midwest':25B 'mind':126B 'miss':210B 'monument':171B 'museum':22B,93B,96B,248B 'narrat':213B 'next':61B 'oaxaca':231B 'oct':139B,145B 'offer':13B 'one':66B 'open':218B 'paint':222B 'peopl':30B,193B 'perspect':43B 'preview':64B 'print':84B 'provid':124B 'provok':170B 'public':46B 're':217B 'receiv':79B 'renov':98B 'represent':187B 'role':154B 'scene':28B 'scrapbook':157B 'scrapbook-mak':156B 'sculptor':136B 'sculptur':173B 'season':3A 'see':209B 'self':244B 'self-discoveri':243B 'singl':130B 'slate':16B 'slow':120B 'smith':177B,197B 'space':100B 'spoke':48B 'stori':204B 'support':38B 'talk':8A 'theme':235B 'third':114B 'thought':169B 'thought-provok':168B 'throughout':23B 'thursday':115B 'tireless':36B 'trent':144B 'upcom':133B 'view':165B 'wong':225B 'work':35B,118B,131B","thumbnail":"https://res.cloudinary.com/dfafo598z/image/upload/v1788406120/wgkj5rkg0rq42watsxad.jpg","editor_pick":true}]}